On Feb 17, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Herb Brannon wrote: > As far as 1700s on Arlington Avenue there were always 1700 series PCCs on > Arlington Avenue. I worked Rt 49-Arlington/Warrington many, many times. > Several "picks" I ran the 49 on a "late" run. If the operator I was > relieving had a 1600 series I would ALWAYS trade out to a 1700 series. I > never had a problem with a 1700 series on Arlington hill. The only problem > I ever had was one time when the brakes went out on a 1600 series and I > stopped the car with the hand brake then traded it out for a 1700 series. > This is not to mention that during the reconstruction of the tunnel all > PCCs used Arlington Avenue at all times and never had a problem. > Also, I have the 1952 Car House Assignments. It does show 1669, 1670, 1671, > 1672, 1673 and 1674 as assigned to Keating. My list is much easier to read > than what was posted on The List by P.C.C. I guess I can post it, since it > is easier to read. > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:39, Fred Schneider wrote: > >> The company did not seem to worry about what they put on FINEVIEW on >> fantrips. I personally scheduled a fantrip using 1707. Believe me, it >> was not suited. The drum brakes would not hold it on Henderson Street and >> the grade was so steep that the track brake shoes lifted off the rail at at >> angle of several degrees. But we got over the line. The also ran 1700s >> over Arlington Avenue as the tunnel bypass and that was a little crazy but >> that may have only been in the PAT days. >> >> Point is, PRC had a rational plan. Yes it was not perfectly consistent >> over time because it could not be. When you close barns and move cars >> because you are contracting operations, there is no way the plan can be >> preserved. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Dwight Long wrote: >> >>> Fred >>> >>> The 1 January 1952 Car House assignment list shows 1669-74 at Keating. >> This was only a few months after they were converted for Fineview service, >> so one must assume that they operated out of Keating at that time, even >> though they were Westinghouse cars. >>> >>> The only other logical place to base them would have been Manchester, >> which would have had less stem time feeding cars on to Fineview but more in >> taking them off. Manchester at the time had a mixture of GE and WH cars, >> but no 1600s. Perhaps that tipped the decision to base the Fineview fleet >> at Keating. >>> >>> Now comes a more pertinent question: Yes, I too have seen and fotted >> cars other than the „Fineview Fleet‰ on that route. Were these cars also >> modified for Fineview service, or did the Railways later decide that the >> mods were really not needed and used cars (other than 1700s, which I never >> saw or heard of being used up there) indiscriminately on Fineview? >>> >>> Dwight >>> >>> From: Fred Schneider >>> Sent: Thursday, 16 February, 2012 21:25 >>> To: pittsburgh-railways@dementix.org >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4393 Versus 4366 >>> No it is not Ed's area of expertise. Roster detail of Pittsburgh >> Railways belongs to another name that I mentioned earlier. >>> >>> The Westinghouse cars in Manchester were the 1400s that had previously >> been at Herron Hill when it closed. Make sense? >>> >>> Heavy overhauls were mileage based beginning in the depression. You >> tell me how many miles were accumulated on a car? And once we got into >> the 1950s and the money was running out, a lot of the work was done in car >> houses instead of sending cars to Homewood. >>> >>> The only revenue cars I ever photographed on Fineview were 1688 and >> 1689. I don't dispute that you have a roster that shows Westinghouse cars >> at Keating. I have no idea how authentic it is or who prepared it. I >> never saw a Westinghouse car at Keating. I only personally witnessed GE >> tens, elevens, sixteens and seventeens >>> >>> In an entire 1/2 inch folder of Glenwood photos, three of them are GE >> 1400s on route 56 at unidentified locations on unknown dates by an unknown >> photographer. They could have been taken in the two years after Glenwood >> closed and its routes were assigned to Tunnel. >>> >>> >>> On Feb 16, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote: >>> >>>> Mr.Schneider; >>>> Car 4393 was scrapped in 1956 wasn't it. Car 4398 was part of that >>>> group which is possibly why it was saved; now or never time. >>>> >>>> It was May and June when the high 4300s were scrapped. >>>> >>>> >>>> On the matter of equipment, it shifted so much didn't it that it would >>>> actually be difficult to pin down when a type was assigned any >>>> particular location. I am not finding fault with the listing in your >> PCC >>>> book; I commend you for the effort. My interest is not always piqued >>>> by these details but someone wrote that Westinghouse PCCs were >>>> the first ones modified for Fineview service. The 1952 roster shows >>>> this doesn't it; I found that roster in the files here. Cars 1669-1674 >> were >>>> at Keating, the only cars of this class at that time. These must have >> been >>>> the ones modified for Fineview. Cars 4219, 4366 and 4374 are shown >>>> at Keating; photos reveal it operating on Evergreen so it must have been >>>> moved to Keating. This emphasizes that equipment moves are often >>>> frequent and arbitrary from our perspective doesn't it. But Prc had a >> purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>> This sounds like an assignment for Mr.Lybarger doesn't it. He alone >> seems >>>> to look from the: "What am I missing?" perspective to find the answer. >>>> >>>> >>>> In 1952 Homewood was pure Westinghouse PCC. There were 52-1200s! >>>> Homewood only had 3-classes of PCCs; other two are 16s and 17s. South >> Hills >>>> at this time had 5-classes didn't it---11s, 12s, 14s, 16s, and 17s. >> All the 16s >>>> were Interurbans. >>>> >>>> >>>> Manchester was a relatively small barn wasn't it yet it was assigned >> both >>>> Westinghouse and Ge cars. >>>> >>>> According to this 1952 roster Glenwood was strictly Westinghouse. With >> half- >>>> a-dozen car house closures following Glenwood then had a mix to include >> Ge >>>> cars didn't it. Craft at the time didn't have Ge but did later. It >> looks like a small >>>> barn but in 1952 had 109 PCCs and possibly received more! >>>> >>>> I always 'assumed' the Ge 17s from Ingram went to Keating in 1959. >> They didn't. >>>> Many were in Homewood for a while. Some time later Keating had all >> Ge-17s, >>>> not long before it was closed! >>>> >>>> Equipment apparently moved more frequently than one would assume. >> "Maybe" >>>> heavy overhaul is 'a' reason. A car sent to Homewood for same would >> immediately >>>> be replaced by another car. This seems logical. How often were heavy >> overhauls? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Fred Schneider >>>> To: pittsburgh-railways@dementix.org >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:34 PM >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4393 Versus 4366 >>>> >>>> After 1953 ten cars were retained for a year or so for emergencies that >> never happened. Buses were easier. They were the 4390s. That's why >> the museum got 4398. So after the end of 1953 I think we can assume that >> 4393 was scrapped pretty fast. >>>> >>>> The person to ask would be Dave Hamley. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Herb Brannon wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's all well and good, however, should fall under the subject of >> Control >>>>> Systems. >>>>> I want to know where 4393 and 4366 were assigned during their tenure at >>>>> PRCo. I know where they were on January 1, 1952. Where were they after >> that? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 18:03, Fred Schneider >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Funny thing, Herb. >>>>>> Normally cars were segregated to barns in Pittsburgh by equipment. >> We >>>>>> all knew which barns had GE PCCs and which had Westinghouse PCCs. >>>>>> >>>>>> The yellow cars had a similar scheme. There were barns that had cars >>>>>> with K-35 or K-43 controls. Then there were other barns that had >> cars >>>>>> with HL control. Same as with the PCCs, the idea was to minimize >> parts >>>>>> inventory. And, just like the PCC assignments, Homewood was totally >> mixed >>>>>> because it was right next door to the central parts room so it didn't >>>>>> matter. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is HL? For those unfamiliar, HL was a Westinghouse remote >> control >>>>>> system, meaning the motorman's controller did not physically handle >> the 600 >>>>>> volt motoring circuits, it instead told a separate controller, usually >>>>>> mounted in a case under the car, what to do. Westinghouse used low >>>>>> voltage lines between the platform controller and the motoring >> controllers. >>>>>> In HL or AL, the L stood for Line voltage passed through a dropping >>>>>> resistor to get a low voltage control circuit. In AB or HB, a >> battery was >>>>>> used for the control circuit. The H stood for hand notching, a A for >>>>>> automatic progression. Got it? OK, now most Westinghouse schemes >> used >>>>>> pneumatic switches to control the actual 600 volt (or 1200 volt) >> circuits, >>>>>> and they we be mounted so that if you lost air, they would naturally >> open >>>>>> by gravity. >>>>>> >>>>>> General Electric favored solenoid (magnetic) switches instead of air >>>>>> (pneumatic switches). Almost all of the Westinghouse HL installations >> in >>>>>> Pittsburgh were really knock-offs of GE type M control ... they were >> low >>>>>> voltage (instead high voltage with GE favored) but they used solenoid >>>>>> switches instead of pneumatics. The only possible exception (and I >> have >>>>>> never been able to prove this one way or the other), those 6000 >> series late >>>>>> 1920s experimental cars might have been pneumatic. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, which barns ... Keating was supposedly a drum control barn. All >> of >>>>>> the single-end cars there in my memory were 4700s or 5500s in later >> years. >>>>>> I made a stupid assumption that 4366 was therefore a K35 car. >> Ooops. >>>>>> I found a picture of it at 12 Evergreen and guess what? I can see >> very >>>>>> clearly, the HL contactor box under the far end of the car. What >> the >>>>>> blanket-blank caused them to mix cars at Keating unless it was the >> only car >>>>>> they had available to put there? In the period up until 1951-52 when >> route >>>>>> 9 also worked out of Keating, it used a 4200 and all those low 4200s >> that >>>>>> were still active very late were HL cars also. Roster pdf file >> attached. >>>>>> This roster also confirms that 4366 was a HL car; 4393 was a K-35 car. >>>>>> >>>>>> Might be when we got to the very bitter end, it didn't matter. If it >>>>>> worked, put it there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >>>>>> -- Type: application/pdf >>>>>> -- Size: 184k (188994 bytes) >>>>>> -- URL : >> http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/roster.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below -- >>>>>> -- Type: text/plain >>>>>> -- Size: 2k (2269 bytes) >>>>>> -- URL : >> http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ecartIFqFm8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Herb Brannon > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park > >